Jon Stahl’s Journal

Jan 27th, 2003 by Jon Stahl

MSNBC has this article on how the Dutch are planning to put small wind turbines on urban buildings. $5000-$12,000 a pop to start, 5000 KWh/year, an an estimate 5-year payback time. Cool.

Tags: environment

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32 Responses to “Wind power for urban buildings”

on 12 Sep 2003 at 5:12 pm1Bintang Nugroho

Windpower in a downtown possibly provoke people to rethink about energy saving. Next, they choose it because of the efficiency ( The machine is inexpensive and operation cost is low). Windpower become a new lifestyle ! Especially in a city like Jakarta, Indonesia
on 09 Feb 2005 at 2:58 pm2Justin Hastie

If anyone finds out or knows anything more about wind power on top or integrated into a buiding would be great cause I’m doing a research project about it if they could e-mail me at justin.hastie@edu.sait.ca that would be very helpful thank you
on 13 Dec 2005 at 9:19 am3Justin de Smit

I just want everyone to know about a new technology; that no one has ever herd of or considered in any variable in any economic model in the entire world.
The mag-wind 1100, http://www.mag-wind.com is the newest VAWT windmill, set for production in Texas; a production capacity of 3000 to 3500 next year.
This thing is amazing; it puts out 5000 watts at 28 mph wind.
But thus far their is no information on any such tests, and their are statistics anywhere? And it; I guess made its introduction last Friday in Texas? But I cant find anywhere, in any paper in Texas that it actually did?
If this is true, I cannot even imagine the marginal propensity on the micro scale, the marginal economic efficiency gains this machine could put out, and the marginal benefits to the economy.
If anyone, anywhere can find an article with respect to this windmill, then please email me in Canada; Iâ€™d love to find more!!
on 27 Dec 2005 at 9:13 am4Thomas Priest-Brown

Hi Justin, I have a few printed articles from Canadian and a Texas newspaper. Send me your email address and I’ll forward to you.
on 27 Jun 2006 at 10:47 am5Alex Persaud

Hi Thomas, could you send me the articles you mentioned as well. I am looking into mag-wind as well
on 28 Jul 2006 at 8:50 am6Steve Wilke

Uhhhhh……no.

Visit http://www.awea.org/faq/windpower.html to see the calculation that tells you how much energy is contained in the wind within a given “swept area”. The Mag-wind machine has a 4ft x 4ft rotor = 16 square feet = 1.5 square meters. If we plug this swept area into our equation (see link above) at 28mph (12.5 meters per second) and use sea-level air density, we can see that the wind in this intercept area contains 1794 watts of power…..the claim that this machine can extract 2.8 times the power from the wind than is actually present is absurd to the extreme.

The energy production claims I’ve heard from this company are equally absurd.

I’m all for innovation in small wind power, but the laws of physics still apply.
on 16 Aug 2006 at 1:43 pm7Dan

@Steve:

I agree, their numbers are most probably blown out of proportion, but they are claiming that number using a very specific roof layout – 30 degrees on a second floor and about 10 feet deep. The idea I think was that it used the roof at that angle to concentrate the air somewhat, supposedly doubling productivity.

However, doubling is not tripling and not everyone has a perfect roofline. Their zeal to give big numbers will undoubtedly come back to bite them in the ass if they care about long term.

Fact is, you can probably build the unit they suggest in your garage for $1000 and save yourself the $6000+$15000 installation. Then even 1/3 of their claim – a 1500kwH/mo would be a reasonable return. The rest you can throw into LED lighting and (if you have hot summers) reflective film for your windows to block infra red – which can reduce your AC costs by roughly 25%.
on 24 Aug 2006 at 5:04 am8Steve Wilke

I’d sure like to see empirical data regarding this “roof effect” claim, because I find it a bit difficult to believe (putting it mildly). Annemometers at the ridgeline and gutter of this ideal roof, and published data regarding the measured wind speeds from both of these devices, would go a long, long, long way towards supporting their claims…so would actual energy production numbers from a real-world site. Their web site is light on data and heavy on hype.
on 30 Aug 2006 at 3:23 pm9victor

have a look at these images I took a few weeks ago on a demo home at a builders site where I live. Milton Ontario

I called the Canadian distributer and got some info They are close in Welland, Ontario. Company is “Niagara wind power” They are on the net.

rated at 5 kw at 12.517 m/s
startup 2.2 m/s
images are of hand made unit.
production unit to weigh in at 165 lbs
wild A/c
Safety mechanism to prevent overspeed
safe to 160 km per hour wind speed (100 mph)
existing inverter (grid tie) to be badged “Mag-wind”
3500 units to be produced by Vector Systems inc. (1000 units to Canada, 800 units to builders, 200 for General sales) . Not sure about the U.S.
You can have one installed with inverter for $15000.00 canadian dollars
You are required to put a $5000.00 Canadian dollar down payment on the unit.
Production of the units have not started as of yet.
No date for arrival of unit
Production site is not complete (walls are up)
Unit Has been tested
Test data not available yet
Will find out more Sept 6 when the Salesman calls
Sound like a scam to me.

Victor

The site below is where I post my birding images if your wondering

http://outdoorontario.net/Gallery/albums/album04/newtech.sized.jpg
http://outdoorontario.net/Gallery/albums/album04/newtech2.sized.jpg
on 14 Sep 2006 at 8:38 am10Jon Christensen

Victor
Did you hear from the salesperson about the Mag-Wind?
Jon
on 16 Sep 2006 at 10:31 pm11Cary

Anyone in the US interested in ordering one of the inital 200 Mag-Wind 1100’s? I know a distributor who has a few left.
on 18 Sep 2006 at 1:28 pm12Jon Christensen

Cary
What is the price of the Mag wind 1100 from your distributor?
Jon
on 29 Sep 2006 at 3:21 pm13Matt Tritt

The MagWind football has been kicked around on the AWEA list for quite a while now, and there seem to have been two distict camps that have formed around it: Camp 1 (includes me) maintains that this machine is completely incapable of making the energy it claims to be able to make, regardless of any “roof effect”. This is because of what Steve W. says a few messages back about swept area, Betz Law and reality as we recognize it. Camp 2 maintains that we are just too closed-minded to recognize great things when we see them because we are collectively too invested in the status quo to allow for New and Amazing changes in the (false) laws of physics.

The battle over this has become quite public and foul language has been bantied-about!

As a wind guy me’self, I would like to be on record as not believing any of the clamis published by MagWind concerning net energy production, power produced at rated wind speed, how neat an idea it is to stick one on the ridge of your roof and how long it will take to pay the thing off, should you choose to do so. :>o

Oil of snakes.
on 07 Oct 2006 at 1:21 pm14Jim

The costs $8500.00 uninstalled.
on 12 Oct 2006 at 2:36 pm15Jennifer

I am looking for a distributor in the US for the Mag-Wind? Anyone have suggestions on who I should contact?
on 16 Oct 2006 at 5:25 am16Victor

Hello my salesman came and went.

price in Canada $15000.00 unknown delivery date.

first year production is already sold. They were still working on the details regarding the grid tie unit. (rebadging)

I told him that I want to see a unit that is actually producing power. before I get one.. Info he gave me regarding production was a little disturbing. As of September 6 production had not started at Vector Systems in Texas.

His office is in Grimsby Ontario adjacent to the design and test site for the magwind.. Company is NCRC or something like that..

Regarding the Demo unit near my house. it spins most days… During a recent storm it was spinning quite well winds were near 40 mph. I was informed by the sales rep that 160 rpm equals 5kw..

Victor:))
on 30 Oct 2006 at 2:45 pm17E J - TX

Too good to be true probably is too good to be true. Just the same, is there a distributor out there? Is there an installation with some time on it?

Certainly, it would be nice if there was a bit more of business and a bit less monkey in the wind energy systems biz. So far, I get a lot more ideological hot air than hard figure answers when I ask questions about composing a system for my house and operations, save for faithful Aeromotor and water wells
on 10 Nov 2006 at 8:44 am18scruss

In response to Dan’s comment, you cannot concentrate wind into a rotor. At anything beyond the Betz limit, a turbine becomes more of an obstacle, and thw wind stream tends to flow around, not through, the swept area. As the Mag-Wind is a drag machine, its peak efficiency will be pretty low.

Wind turbines come with published specs and accurate dimensions. I see neither of these for the Mag-Wind.
on 18 Jan 2007 at 7:13 am19Colshe

We are a distributor/dealer in the for the Mag-Wind 1100. We have current brochures and specs for this VAWT. Please e-mail me with any questions at astiefen@ncn.net
on 30 Jan 2007 at 1:51 pm20Alec Munro

Anyone have any idea what the hold up is on these devices? I refer specifically to the Mag-Wind, but generally to innovative wind power generators.

Even assuming this can’t produce nearly the amount of electricity it is claiming at that wind speed, it can surely produce some electricity, and by having more than one of them, you should be able to get the amount of electricity you require.

Of course, that brings up the other issue I have, which is cost. Why do these cost $10,000? Is it electronics, the magnets, the complicated metal shapes? I would think you could probably build a 1/10th scale model of one of these for peanuts, using parts from a dollar store. After all, you can find simple generators all over the place (hand-crank flashlights), and I know I’ve seen this turbine design in simple papercraft books. I’m sure there’s a bit of clever engineering bringing it all together, but you should be able to sell something like this for $5000 to start, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see them hit $1000 as scale ramps up.

At this point, I’m almost suspicious that the established power industries are somehow sabotaging new developments.
on 04 Feb 2007 at 6:55 am21Hard to be Green

Long time alternative energy enthusiest form the Mid West here. We have been looking for something like the MagWind to come along for some time. Sound in theory, but not yet proven. I like to be inovative, think outside the box, try new things. I was very excited to give MagWind a chance even though it is not yet proven. There always has to be a start somewhere, somebody has to be first, risk reaps rewards…

We jumped at the chance to buy a couple of them…as did many others from our area (MT, ND, SD). I believe about 10 were sold in our immediate area, some to local business, some to local government (school and such) with downpayments made (we were in for 1/2 of 2 MagWind MW1100s). A number of mainstreet businesses (mine included) were to have MW1100s installed in full view of the public, along with solar arrays. Great PR for us…and especially for Magwind and alternative energy.

The time for delivery came and went….excusses…finally we had enough and contacted some authorities.

Well, long story short, I think a lot of people got took. The dealer we had was taking downpayments when he should not have been. He apparantly WAS NOT following MagWind policy and was acting on his own. My understanding is that no downpayments are to take place, only payment upon instillation of the Magwind turbines. He did not tell us that the turbines were not ready yet, etc… Long story short, the FBI now has him under investigation and he has spent a few months in jail and is looking to spend more time there. Oh, and the money is no where to be found ofcourse…

For us it ment no turbines and ligthtened our pocket book by $15,000. A great project destroyed by green and criminal intent.

This type of stuff makes it hard to be green. We are hoping that MagWind will stand behind this unfortuante event and produce turbines for those who were burned by Larry Suchy since he was an authorized dealer for them…but only time will tell what type of business they are…the pie in the sky company that many think they are or the soild rock foundation company that I hope they are or become. It would speak well for Magwind to correct this situation and repair the damage caused.

If you had any dealings with Larry Suchy (SunBreeze, SolarBreeze, Albaze Technologies) for alternative energy systems you might want to contact the FBI folks investigating this:

FBI Special Agent Sandra Klein phone 406 248 8487 Bill.SLC@ic.fbi.gov

I do want to make clear that I dont believe it was Magwind that did this intentionally. It was a dealer of theirs gone rouge who was out collecting downpayments with no apparant intention of making sure the turbines were delivered and installed. I still want to give MagWind a shot…but now I dont think I can afford to.

I still hope Magwind can make things work and that these types of technologies have a chance to grow, this country needs them, energy independence and save the planet and all…but if it makes sence economically then people will do it. The MW1100 did make sence, even it if only performs at 50% of its claimed capacity…we have very good wind here.

Disspointed, but not giving up. I am very interested in trying to build my own now since the alternative energy budget is now decimated….maybe solar is next. Anybody have any plans available to build a maglev turbine in the garage for a tiny budget…thats all I can afford now…if it wasnt so painfull I could almost laugh.

Even though I like to give new things a chance, from here on out I am not buying any wind power equipment that NREL has not tested to failure.

Think Green, but watch your green as well!
on 04 Feb 2007 at 9:16 pm22ChuckD

Well, it didn’t take too long for Google to back up your story:

-A press release from the State of ND
http://www.ag.state.nd.us/NewsReleases/2006/05-11-06.pdf

So sorry to hear of this. But as the need for alternative energy grows (as I believe it will), so will the vermin smelling dollars. Eyes on the horizon, hand on the wallet.

Thanks for the warning.
on 27 Feb 2007 at 12:27 pm23Sustainable Design Update » Blog Archive » New Wind Turbine - No Data

[...] Â Steve Wilke Says: July 28th, 2006 at 8:50 am Uhhhhhâ€¦â€¦no. [...]
on 09 Apr 2007 at 6:45 pm24Why Not Put a Wind Turbine on Your Roof? - Unsought Input

[...] Unfortunately, it might not be on the up-and-up.Â Paul Gipe at Wind-Works.org ran some numbers and he doesn’t think the power output they are claiming is possible.Â There’s also some talk of a fake Mag-Wind dealer (not actually authorized by the company) taking a whole bunch of people’s money in North Dakota.Â More interesting discussion can be found at Treehugger. [...]
on 08 May 2007 at 7:35 am25Jim Heimbach

I have been following this company for over two years. They have not come through on one of the many promises they have made. The efficiency claims they formerly made on their web site (now taken down, interestingly enough) show an effiency rating where it will deliver 280% of the energy available in the wind flowing through the swept area of the turbine. You be the judge. There is no physical way this company can deliver what they promise. It is as simple as that. I would simply ignore this company and anything it claims.
Incidentally Thomas Priest-Brown, who posted a comment earlier is one of the inventors of the Mag-Wind turbine. You might want to ask him about the non-existent idenpendent performance testing they promised about two years ago. I wonder why they don’t publish those statistics? Why are they not in production now, when they promised they would be in production October of 2006? Why didn’t Mr. Priest-Brown identify himself in his comment? Why didn’t Mag-Wind follow through on Ross Perot’s Jr’s, President of Hillwood Development, promise to make available the top of his office building in Dallas for a Mag-Wind 1100 prototype? Why didn’t Mag-Wind contact Hillwood Development at all over a period of more than six months after having received this generous offer. I know these things, because I have spoken personally, and at length, with Bill Burton, Senior VP of Hillwood. He said their behavior was at the very least completely unprofessional. He has now terminated any relationship with Mag-Wind.
As I said, I do not think this company is worth a minute of your time.
on 15 May 2007 at 2:44 am26Sebastian

Well, the roof can be something like a diffusor for a Vortex Wind Generator turbine. The rotor of mag wind sure looks like the rotor of VGT,but frankly speaking is notthing more then a Savonius type VAWT(drag type).If you could add a diffusor on top of it and make air flow like a vortex aroung the rotor one could extract more energy form wind.
Look at the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6jyUdGPIJE
on 22 May 2007 at 4:59 am27Keith

Mag-wind is a lot of hot air, i live in Texas they were to put one on a roof top close to where i live even asked about buying one (Grid-tie) the guy in charge would not call me back and as far as i know they never did install one …..they seem to be a big joke……no wonder you never saw any test data……..
on 02 Aug 2007 at 3:55 pm28Rich

I’m no scientist but I was trying to figure out how the manufacturer could have arrived at their numbers. Looking at the formula Steve Wilke posted and the unit itself I noticed that the blades are curved and there are 8 of them. If the unit is 48″ high and stretched out the blades are 34″ wide, that would give each blade ~5.66 sq. ft. Multiply that by 8 blades and you get ~45.33 sq. ft of blade surface area. What I find interesting is that if you divide that by the 16 sq. ft. Steve used in his calculations (45.33 / 16 = 2.83) you get roughly 280%.

The other thing I was wondering about was the roof effect. Could a correctly oriented roof possibly act like a funnel to increase the amount of wind passing over the turbine? We all know what it’s like when we reach the corner of an apartment block. The wind humming around that corner always seem to be a lot stronger than when you are past it and heading up wind towards the street. Perhaps with that perfect set-up (prolly only achievable in a test environment) a 9mph wind 30 feet off the roof becomes a 25mph wind ripping over the crest of your roof. It would explain why lots of roofs and/or shingles get ripped off houses in severe storms.

Again, I’m no scientist and, no, I don’t work for anyone selling these things. I just wonder how someone can make the claims they do. If the claims turn out true I want one, although it doesnâ€™t seem likely at this point. Oh well.
on 03 Dec 2007 at 2:16 pm29Dwight

Wind / Solar / Hydrogen are all excelent sources of energy that
eventually will solve the worlds energy crisis. buuuuuuuuuuut!
These sources have one major problem all in common, that they
could provide the consumer with FREE energy. How can big corporations make a profit, they can not sell you wind sunshine or water. In 1974 after the oil embargo, several inventors claimed
to have built fuel systems that would deliver 30 to 50 mpg, did you ever see production? But 30 years later most cars sold get atleast
30 mpg. If it sounds to good, just wait long enough for the big corporations to figure out how they can controll and profit from
the technology
on 15 Feb 2008 at 11:22 am30Livio Filice

I just think that everyone should purchase a V3.5 from Cleanfield Energy.

Real company, real product, real people.
on 17 Jun 2008 at 2:19 pm31robert T

hey Im looking for a decent priced wind turbin that can hook to the grid.. Been looking around and do some reading, it all gets confusing and now i see ppl are stealing from customers….
ill keep looking.. I want to go Green and was inspired by a TV show no less, but 15 grand is alot of money to shell out and now i have to watch who i give it to to boot.. what has this country come to ?
on 24 Apr 2009 at 2:25 am32Will T

What a rippoff. The problem with all these systems is not the efficiency, its the price. Why do all these systems cost stupid money. $8000? what is it, a mercedes? The reason they dont payback on their investment is not efficincy, its price.
To add futher comments on the above forum, yes you can concentrate wind on to a turbine. Several building designs have done this. at low windpseeds a good funnel design can more than double windspeed, which results in a X8 increase in power. Obviously the collection area has to be at least 8 times bigger than the concentrated area otherwise your creating energy (impossible). Yes more air flows round the outside, but look in a stream with 2 rocks sitting side by side. watch the water flowing through the middle and round the outside. If you had to put a small turbine in there, where would you put it? right behind the middle of the 2 rocks where the flow rate suddenly increases. Maglev are on to a good idea, wasted by stupid prices and exaggerations.

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